Abstract: Joined Lyons as a programmer, working to maintain LEO I programs while also working on new programs for LEO II including payroll. Left as LEO III was being introduced to move through a variety of jobs.

Transcript :

Mike Hally: So it’s the sixth of April. And I’m Mike Hally. I’m interviewing Robert Thoday to give us the story of his involvement with LEO Computers from the earliest days. We are recording this
interview as a part of the LEO Computers Society Oral History Project. The audio version and the transcript will be lodged as a central archive made available for researchers and members of the public. So, good afternoon, Robert. Perhaps you’d like to introduce yourself first.
Robert Thoday: Where do I start? My name is Robert Thoday. I was born in 1943, during the War, although, obviously, my memories are extremely episodic of that.

MH: Can I just start with a little bit of background? Long before we get to LEO. So what did your father and your mother do?

RT: My father was a commander in the navy, Royal Navy. My mother a housewife, as was quite usual in those days.

MH: Absolutely.

RT: And I then was brought up - well, I was born in London, or just outside. But then I moved to Coventry, which I thought was a very wise move. And Hitler followed me. Then I was North Wales, in Devon, because my father moved to Plymouth with his career. But then finally ended up in Bromley when I was nine years old.

MH: Right. In those very early years, before, perhaps even, you went to school, have you any particular memories from that early time?

RT: Any particular memories? I loved Dartmoor.. Not particular, no. I mean, just normal sort of childhood memories, I suppose, yeah.

MH: What sort of childhood interests did you have? I mean, I remember, obviously meccano, that was one of my big things which (overlapping conversation) -

RT: Yeah, well, I certainly had meccano but I was much more interested in outdoor things. I did
play sports quite a lot, but, actually, I just enjoyed running and cycling most of all, Things on my own rather than with others - I had two elder sisters. But they went to  different schools.  We got on perfectly well, but we didn’t actually do a lot together, if you see what I mean.

MH: Sure. So tell me about your schools then? Just briefly, your primary school and your secondary school.

RT: Well, once I’d moved to London, which, as I say, was when I was coming up to nine, I went to Dulwich Prep School. And then from there, obviously went onto Dulwich College, .

MH: So was that helped by your father being in the navy? Or was that coincidental?

RT: No, not - I mean, he wanted me to. I think he had to pay fees for the prep school. But at Dulwich College, I got a Kent scholarship, so he didn’t have to pay for that. And I was just a day boy then, not a boarder.

MH: What were your subject - what particularly interested you at school in those days?

RT: Well, that’s a long story, Mike, actually. Because I was mostly interested in English and History. But somehow, between my father and the school, I got pushed into doing science, and then into mathematics for A level, so…

MH: Well, let’s have a brief diversion because I think it’s one of the awful things about the school system in those days. Likewise, I loved English, in particular. But I also loved physics, and
chemistry, and maths. And I had to choose between the two, which is, I think, disgraceful.

RT: Yeah. (overlapping conversation) I don’t know about your schooling, but yes, I had to choose at 13, I mean, even before O levels.

MH: Absolutely, yeah. It was a choice at 13. And pupils who were in the sort of the middle were pushed towards science because that was seen to really be a good thing.

RT: Yeah. Well, I mean, my father’s case, to be fair to him, he had a degree in physics. So that was natural for him to go that way. And I can’t actually remember anybody ever asking me what I wanted. It was just sort of like decided for me.

MH: Again, that was those days, wasn’t it? That was the norm, I think.

RT: Yeah, exactly. 

MH: So what about O levels and A levels? What did you do there?

RT: Well, I did the whole, range of O levels. So I think I got 10 or 11 in the end. But, I mean, that was sort of fairly normal. But then I went onto maths. And I mean, pure maths, applied maths, maths, maths, with a bit of physics. So, actually, at A level, I just did pure maths, applied Maths, and physics. That was all.

MH: Exactly the same here. And going on - presume you went on to university, did you?

RT: No, I didn’t. Because in my final year, when I was taking A levels as I say, I wasn’t ever that interested. So I didn’t want to go to university, particularly, or not to do Maths anyway. And my
parents were in the middle of an extremely messy divorce then. And, quite honestly, I just wanted to get out and earn a living. So that coincided, in fact, with me not wanting to go to university anyways. So then I was just looking for a job, basically. I didn’t really know what. And Joe Lyons set an advert for this thing called computer programmers and wanted people with A level maths. And so I just fell into by chance because even my maths teachers at school didn’t know what a programmer was or a computer was.  Most of us had heard of,  Alan Turing and Bletchley Park, and that was about it, really.

MH: So what date are we talking about then? What year would that be?

RT: 1960. I think I started with them in September. It might’ve even been Aug . I did my A levels in June, July. And (audio breaking) started work shortly afterwards. 

MH: Good. Well, now, we’re into the meat of what the Society’s interested in, of course. So what can you tell me about starting that job, and the training, and so on?

RT: Right. Well, bear in mind, I didn’t know what a computer was, a programmer was. And I don’t suppose anybody else much did in those days. They were very (overlapping conversation) -

MH: I should ask you then, what was the interview process, the selection process? Did they test you (overlappingconversation)?

RT: I think they had some kind of aptitude test. But there was - in those days, this is Cadby Hall, Joe Lyons -  an Organisation and Methods Office, which I’m sure you understand (overlapping conversation), but in case listeners don’t. In those days, there were  two disciplines, Organisation
and Methods, which was (audio breaking) to do with office procedures, administration systems, and Work Study, which was the equivalent on the factory floor. So there was an Organisation Methods Office. And there - five, maybe six Organisation Methods people, two Work Study people, and two people I can remember on the Organisation Methods side that had learned to programme as obviously their job function was changing. But there weren’t any “programmers” as such, One other was recruited with me and I think he was called Roger Emsley - I don’t know if you’ve come across that name.

MH: I think I have.

RT:. There were two of us taken from school, doing A levels. And in those days, of course, LEO Computers already been hived off into a separate company. And they were… I’m trying to remember
the name of it now. In the Bayswater Road, over a department store… (audio breaking) it will come to me.

MH: It was Whiteleys, wasn’t it, I think?

RT: Whiteleys, that’s right, yup. That was quite right, yes. Yes. So they were there. So, basically, myself and this other guy, who I think was Roger, were taken on to maintain LEO One programmes, all of which had been written by - originally, obviously, by LEO personnel. There wasn’t anybody in Joe
Lyons that knew how to programme LEO One. And also to maintain and write new programmes for LEO Two. And the training, which was very good , Joe Lyons in those days were renowned for their training. It helped to get me jobs years later.

The programme training was done by LEO people in Whiteleys. So we went there for the course. And Joe Lyons ran various sort of courses all to do with office management, printing, form design, you know, lots of little evening classes, as it were. Which didn’t have any qualifications or anything, but, obviously, gave you a very good grounding in all that kind of thing.

MH: Didn’t you remember any of the people who were actually doing the LEO training for you?

RT: I can’t remember., I remember names, but whether they were doing the courses, I really can’t remember. They’re names that everybody knows, I’m sure. So, you know, Frank Land, David Caminer, people like that. But I cannot remember their faces or, actually, if they ran the courses. They maybe supervised them, I just don’t know.

MH: So was it still quite a small, close-knit group then that ran the LEO?

RT: Oh, yes. Very much so, very much so. And although it was then, obviously, separate from the Lyons operation, as it were, there was constant communication back and forth, you know. They had all sorts of things, whatever it was, because the programming side was obviously, sort of, very much in its
infancy, and people were almost making it up as they went along, kind of thing. So, yeah, we certainly used to refer back to David Caminer about various things. Because, obviously, he knew what we didn’t. And there were probably other people, but I can’t remember other names as such, no.

MH: But what was it like working in that atmosphere? Because, as you say, it was all new, very few people knew about computers and programming. Was it very exciting?

RT: Oh, yes,. Well,, for me, at a personal level, it was exciting. I was earning enough money to rent a little bedsit, get away from my parents, be independent. But it was just sort of different, and it was all new. And having, obviously, no, preconceptions whatsoever, you know, sort of everything was a new experience. And, obviously, very much a learning one, yes. 

MH: And what were the sort of projects you worked on? Are there any particular you can remember? Can you recall?

RT: Well, let’s just say, LEO One was purely maintaining the old programmes. I cannot remember any detail about it. The first major thing I worked on LEO Two was a payroll programme. And I also worked with a guy whose name might have come up as well, Ted Averill, who was trying to develop the Lector optical reader. Sort of disappeared eventually because it wasn’t that good, obviously. But so I worked with him on that. And, as I say, it was also maintaining things. You know, just - so there was an invoice programme. There was project - I can’t remember now the -to do with  the Bakery side. But it was a very big grounding once I  spent a whole day just sitting in a tea shop, taking notes of who was coming in and out, and, you know, that kind of thing. The computing was obviously the main job. But they’re very much concerned with teaching you all about, management, office systems procedures, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. I know it wasn’t a result of my personal work, but in the tea shop, someone eventually came up with, if they put two and a half teaspoons of tea in the pot, rather than three, they could save so much money and the customers didn’t notice the difference. It was that kind of thing. So quite interesting, yes.

MH: And I suppose also there was a feeling that the computing, the programme would be better if you properly understood what it was being used for.

RT: Oh, yes, yes. Well, exactly. So, I mean, you, you know, were very involved with a lot of aspects. And the programme was sort of like the last thing on the end. So, for example, to do the payroll programme - and I was the lead programmer for that, I suppose - I just spent two whole weeks working in the payroll office to find out exactly what they did. You know, because, obviously -

MH: Very good. Because I’m sure they can think of many examples since of off-the-shelf computers and programmes which are sold to companies to do this and that.

RT: Yes. Exactly.

MH: And they don’t really work because the interface is the problem.

RT: That’s right, yes. No, so, I mean, it was - not “physical”, it’s not quite the right word, but you weren’t just sitting at a desk, and you certainly weren’t staring at a screen all day. You know,
you were moving about, doing things, meeting different kinds of people, most of whom,  of course, were a lot older than me. So they used to think, “What’s this 18-year-old, 19-year-old boy coming along trying to tell us what our job is?” So it gets quite interesting. And, obviously, one had to test - you know, you wrote entirely on paper, then after we test it. And because the machines were occupied most of the day, obviously, doing whatever the work was, all programme testing was at night. And you’re either just left your coding for them to try and came back in the morning to find it crashed in the first 10 seconds. Or if it was something a bit more urgent, you actually stayed the night. And then, because everything else was closed down, we were allowed to eat and drink in the
director’s canteen, which was kept open 24 hours a day. So we used to get these wonderful meals, and even have a glass of wine with them sometimes, whilst you were checking out your programme, which was great.

MH: And that, again, is a little insight into industry at that time, isn’t it? The idea of separate canteens, different ranks of work.

RT: Oh, god, yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah, that’s right.

MH: So moving on then, because you were only a few years at LEO, can you tell me how you finished (overlapping conversation) -

RT: The last year I was at Lyons was when LEO Three was being introduced. And we were then using intercode, which you undoubtedly heard of. Because up until then, it had obviously all been machine code. And then I had different jobs with different companies, with different computers. So I’ve worked with IBM 360, ICL 1300, 1900, PDP, Honeywell, I don’t know. Of course, every one of them had different languages, which I had to start again from scratch with. And it was only in the late ‘60s
people started programming in COBOL, which, obviously, was the forerunner of Basic, really. So up until then, every time you changed computers, you had to learn a different language.

MH: Yeah. So just going back a step, why did you leave LEO? Because it sounds like you were having a great time and it was a good education.

RT: Well… Yes. Absolutely. I just wanted to move on. It was obviously based in the centre of London. As I say, I’m an outdoor type, basically. And having seen all the shows and seen all the films, as it were, which I enjoyed very much. You know, I just wanted some - so, first of all, I moved out near
Oxford, which was seated  more in countryside. And then I was near Bristol.

MH: So which companies were those, were in Oxford and then Bristol?

RT: Oxford was Pressed Steel-Fisher, which then became part of British Leyland. But at that time, they basically, well, pressed out car bodies and assembled basic cars, which were then trundled over to Morris Motors, you, for final whatever. And in Bristol, I worked for for a company called GB Britton, which you probably haven’t heard of. But they were a shoe manufacturer. Basically army boots, work boots, that sort of thing. And there I ended up as the data processing manager at far too young an age, actually, because  whilst I had the technical skills, but I didn’t have the skills of handling 50 staff. Half of them were older than me. So that was difficult. And then after that I went freelance, and I worked for three years totally freelance. And in those days, as you probably
know, there were  computer services companies which, you know, had a computer, did the programming for a company, who either couldn’t afford it or didn't want their own- so I did a lot of work for people like that on all sorts of projects, and different kinds of projects.


RT: 1971, the last area , I’ worked on was actually decimalisation. And everybody suddenly converted.

MH: Yeah, yeah.

RT: And then I just wanted to do something different. You know, I believe, I always have believed, you only have one life, so experience things. And it wasn’t that I hated computers. By then I was earning very good money, I was - it wasn’t that. It was just that I thought, “I just don’t want to do this for the rest of my life. I want to go and do something else.”

MH: So what was that? What did you do next?

RT: Yet again, how long have you got, Mike?

MH: It might have to be brief, but it would be interesting to know where you went.

RT: Well, I spent six months managing a pub near [inaudible 00:19:57]. And then I leased a small island in Wales, which was a tourist attraction with a, children’s zoo on it. And I ran that for three or four years. Then I had a small holding, which didn’t work out, because my wife unexpectedly got pregnant and we decided we couldn’t stay there. So then I had a shop in Devon.

MH: Well, just stop you a moment. That’s the first time you mentioned a wife, so when did you meet your future wife?

RT: Oh, well, actually, the last year I was doing computer work in 1971. And that probably was a factor as well, of moving on, I mean. I just thought - you know, I was, as I say, working freelance, so I was working all sorts of hours and hopping on aeroplanes up to Liverpool, or wherever, Birmingham, you know. And I just, you know… So that was a factor, probably. It wasn’t the only one. Because quite the opposite, I said to her, I’m giving up computers and she was horrified. You know,
“What are you going to do? How are you going to earn money?”

MH: So what was she doing? How was she earning?

RT: She was a secretary, basically. Or what you call a man Friday or a woman Friday, I don’t know. (overlapping conversation)

MH: Nice. Yeah. So did you both work in the pub when you ran that?

RT: No, I did that on my own for six months. Or I don’t think it was even that long. My chronology has gone wrong, the pub was immediately after I left J.Lyons and before I started with Pressed Steel

MH: Well, coming forward again, you mentioned the first pregnancy. So you had children as well?

RT: Just the one. Just that one. It wasn’t expected. She wasn’t expected to, and she was more definitely not trying to [inaudible 00:21:50], so that was that. Which I’ve got no regrets about. That was fine.

MH: But, again, that was another big change presumably in your life?

RT: Yes, certainly. Yes. 

MH: So where were you by that time? What were you doing then?

RT: That’s when I bought the shop in Devon.

MH: Right, yeah.

RT: And then for… And by now we’re in the early ‘80s. And, obviously, PCs were available, and coming out and. And I did work for a couple of years for a company in Devon, who actually were, the forefront of optical character readers and scanners and everything. And they had the franchise from an American company for the whole of England. I’m not sure for all of Europe, but it never got that far, I don’t think. So I got into that, not specifically as a programmer, which, obviously, the programming was quite limited anyway, or was in those days. It was coordination, and handling modems, and things like that.

MH: So you hadn’t put computing behind you completely then?

RT: No, no. Oh, no. And I obviously got back into PCs. And programming them a bit, but only for my own pleasure, really. And then the company was taken over and made move to headquarters in London, and I was a offered a very good job. But in no way I  wanted to move back to London, so that was the end of that.

MH: So what about the years since? Can you bring it up to date?

RT: All very briefly.

MH: Yeah.

RT: After that, for four years, something totally different. I ran my own industrial weed spraying business, would you believe? Totally different, exactly. And mainly working for local councils, the military, navy oil and gas companies. There was a certain amount of private work, but basically for big contracts, if you see what I mean. I did that for four years. And then just decided to sell it up for lots of reasons. And whilst I certainly wasn’t rich, you know, I had a decent house, a decent car, etcetera, etcetera. Some savings in the bank. And I was then - what? 46, I think. 47, 48 - anyway, 46, 47. And for two or three years, I worked as a sort of financial consultant to small
businesses, including helping them with their PCs.

MH: Of course.

RT: And then my wife and I split up. And I was just 50, and I’d always wanted to live in France, so I basically retired to France at 50. Having now said I’m retired, I since refurbished
completely four or five houses. So I bought them cheap, did them up, sold them on. I finished the last one about 18 months ago now. But it was, again, just for a totally different lifestyle. And, obviously, I was very aware - going right back to what you were saying why did I leave Lyons. I was suddenly aware I wasn’t earning bad money but. half of my salary was going on accommodation and travel. So it takes a huge slice - and I thought, “This is silly. Go and live somewhere cheaper and
don’t travel. And you don’t need nearly so much money.” It seemed obvious to me, but…

MH: So it sounds like you’re very well-settled in France then?

RT: Oh, yeah, totally, because I’ve been here now about - nearly 25 years, long time.

MH: Yeah, yeah.

RT: It’s certainly the longest I’ve lived anywhere in my life.

MH: Right. It sounds like you’ve been something of a rather restless person, both in where you live and where you work.

RT: Oh, yeah, I am.  Absolutely, yes. Forever jack of all trades, master of none, or something like
that. I like doing different things. I like learning about different things. And once I’ve got to a stage - and, obviously, I’m not the expert, but I’ve got to a confident stage. I think, “Well, I’ve
done that. I want to try something else now.” And, you know, it’s just different characters, different personalities, obviously.

MH: Yeah. So just thinking back, how do you reflect on the significance of your time at LEO?

RT: Oh, I think it was, you know, it was significant. It helped me to, like, go from childhood to adulthood and learn a lot on the way. And having briefly told you all about my history since, you
know. I’ve used my training. The whole, way of dealing with  people, projects  problems whatever, People do MBAs, certainly. And I think Joe Lyons basically gave me an MBA without me paying for it. Because, certainly, over the years, I’ve known an awful lot of other small businessmen.. And just seeing the basic mistakes they all make, so many of them, you know. Either can’t handle the money or can’t budget properly. They might sound simple things, but, actually, if not taught them, you’d probably don’t know how to do them, do you? It’s easy for me to say, it’s easy. But, you know, I was taught it and I do appreciate that, very much so, 

MH: Yeah, it’s easy to underestimate the skills you’ve acquired, isn’t it? Particularly advanced (overlapping conversation).

RT: Yes, (overlapping conversation), absolutely. Yes, yeah. Yes. And all right, particularly nowadays, obviously people do degrees and MAs and, you know - so have bits of paper. There’s nothing wrong with that at all But a plumber, for example or whoever learns on the job. Takes up all sorts of skills and experience, but not in a formal way, which isn’t reflected on bits of paper, as it were.
So, no.

MH: Right, well, that’s actually quite a brisk run through, but I think we’ve covered all the main points. Was there anything else you were hoping to add?

RT: No. Well, if anybody of my contemporaries are still alive, hello. Obviously, most of the people I worked with at Cadby Hall, particularly, apart from Roger Emsley, were older than me. I mean, most of them in the in the O&M Department were in their 30s, you know. And I was 19, so, obviously, they could still be alive, but it’s unlikely. And I wish them all well, obviously, wherever they are, whatever they’re doing. And, yes, as I say, a big thank you to Lyons for what they did.

MH: All right, well, and a big thank you to you -

RT: (overlapping conversation) directly to LEO, who started it all, didn’t they?

MH: Absolutely.

RT: Which is always a little bit of pride for me. People obviously ask, you know, “What did you do?” or something like that. And, you know, I might just say, “Well, I worked on LEO 1, the first programmed business computer.” And I’ll just say, “Go and look it up on Wikipedia.”

MH: Well, thank you as well. As I said, I’ve a little bit to read at the end now, so I’ll just read that. And if I’m reading as you think of something else you want to add, that’s fine. So this interview with Robert Thoday has been recorded by the LEO Computers Society. And the Society would like to thank him very much for his time and reminiscences. The interview and the transcript form part of an Oral History Project to document the early use of electronic computers in business and other applications, but particularly in business. Any opinions expressed are those of the interviewee, that is Robert Thoday, and not of the Society. The copyright of this interview in recorded form and in transcript remains the property of the LEO Computers Society, 2021. So thank you again. Unless there’s any further thoughts?

RT: No, thanks. It really has been a pleasure, actually.

MH: Good. This is great. It’s fascinating. Thank you very much.

RT: Thank you, Mike. Thank you.

MH: Okay. I’ll end it now then. Thanks.

Provenance :
Recording made by the LEO Computers Society as part of their ongoing oral history project.

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